What if we killed the mailing list altogether


#1

And just moved all of our conversation over to Discourse?

Adam


#2

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 04:39:38PM -0800, Adam Jacob wrote:

And just moved all of our conversation over to Discourse?

http://www.discourse.org/

Please no.

Mailing lists are great for technical discussion… where you want to do
things like use ‘vim’ in your email client, suck in code snippets, format
nicely, etc.


Phil Dibowitz phil@ipom.com
Open Source software and tech docs Insanity Palace of Metallica
http://www.phildev.net/ http://www.ipom.com/

“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don’t matter
and those who matter don’t mind.”

  • Dr. Seuss

#3

On Nov 25, 2014, at 7:39 PM, Adam Jacob adam@getchef.com wrote:

And just moved all of our conversation over to Discourse?

http://www.discourse.org/

The homepage doesn’t indicate that you can use it to host a mailing list. My understand is Discourse was more like a forum or something between SO and Reddit. If I can interact purely through a mail client, I’m all for considering it. I have exactly zero love for the GGroups web app.

–Noah


#4

(I don’t know anything about discourse, so it may not do this) What if it continued to operate like a mailing list? IE, you could still send mail to reply and receive mail when other people post. If Discourse did that, would that fulfill your purpose?

I would like a better UI for searching. And if we switched to something like Discourse I could see tags being useful too.

-T

On Nov 25, 2014, at 4:44 PM, Phil Dibowitz phil@ipom.com wrote:

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 04:39:38PM -0800, Adam Jacob wrote:

And just moved all of our conversation over to Discourse?

http://www.discourse.org/

Please no.

Mailing lists are great for technical discussion… where you want to do
things like use ‘vim’ in your email client, suck in code snippets, format
nicely, etc.


Phil Dibowitz phil@ipom.com
Open Source software and tech docs Insanity Palace of Metallica
http://www.phildev.net/ http://www.ipom.com/

“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don’t matter
and those who matter don’t mind.”

  • Dr. Seuss

#5

It’s possible to interact w/ Discourse via email. I’ve used it for
forums for MMORPG guilds before. Works OK. It’s nice having markdown,
sticky posts, surveys and the like.

Not sure how it would work on this kind of scale – how many active
subs do you have to the ML? You’ll need to run Discourse somewhere :slight_smile:
You don’t have to run GGroups.

cheers,

–aj

On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 1:55 PM, Tyler tball@getchef.com wrote:

(I don’t know anything about discourse, so it may not do this) What if it continued to operate like a mailing list? IE, you could still send mail to reply and receive mail when other people post. If Discourse did that, would that fulfill your purpose?

I would like a better UI for searching. And if we switched to something like Discourse I could see tags being useful too.

-T

On Nov 25, 2014, at 4:44 PM, Phil Dibowitz phil@ipom.com wrote:

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 04:39:38PM -0800, Adam Jacob wrote:

And just moved all of our conversation over to Discourse?

http://www.discourse.org/

Please no.

Mailing lists are great for technical discussion… where you want to do
things like use ‘vim’ in your email client, suck in code snippets, format
nicely, etc.


Phil Dibowitz phil@ipom.com
Open Source software and tech docs Insanity Palace of Metallica
http://www.phildev.net/ http://www.ipom.com/

“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don’t matter
and those who matter don’t mind.”

  • Dr. Seuss

#6

What’s the problem we’re trying to solve here? Are people having specific
problems with the ML? Has chef inc been using discourse internally? What
are the pros for it over a traditional ML from folks that have used it a
while? My vote is ML cause I like them and don’t see a problem, but happy
to hear specifics. changemyview?

KC

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 5:05 PM, AJ Christensen <aj@junglistheavy.industries

wrote:

It’s possible to interact w/ Discourse via email. I’ve used it for
forums for MMORPG guilds before. Works OK. It’s nice having markdown,
sticky posts, surveys and the like.

Not sure how it would work on this kind of scale – how many active
subs do you have to the ML? You’ll need to run Discourse somewhere :slight_smile:
You don’t have to run GGroups.

cheers,

–aj

On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 1:55 PM, Tyler tball@getchef.com wrote:

(I don’t know anything about discourse, so it may not do this) What if
it continued to operate like a mailing list? IE, you could still send mail
to reply and receive mail when other people post. If Discourse did that,
would that fulfill your purpose?

I would like a better UI for searching. And if we switched to something
like Discourse I could see tags being useful too.

-T

On Nov 25, 2014, at 4:44 PM, Phil Dibowitz phil@ipom.com wrote:

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 04:39:38PM -0800, Adam Jacob wrote:

And just moved all of our conversation over to Discourse?

http://www.discourse.org/

Please no.

Mailing lists are great for technical discussion… where you want to do
things like use ‘vim’ in your email client, suck in code snippets,
format

nicely, etc.


Phil Dibowitz phil@ipom.com
Open Source software and tech docs Insanity Palace of Metallica
http://www.phildev.net/ http://www.ipom.com/

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don’t
matter

and those who matter don’t mind."

  • Dr. Seuss

#7

Judging by how rarely code snippets and formatting are used on the mailing list I would argue that they are actually not a feature of email that most people consider to be usable. Some email clients (Airmail) have somewhat decent tools for doing Markdown, but many do not, or people do not know how to use them.

I haven’t used Discourse, but it looks neat. Reminds me of Slack, which I use all the time. My personal wants would be:

  • Decent formatting tools (would be especially cool if it knew how to syntax highlight Ruby)
  • Searchability
  • Discreet topics
  • Some way to make sure I can still sort of get “push” notifications of new topics the way that I do with email. Maybe this isn’t true for everyone but for me personally if I don’t see questions that I know how to answer amongst my regular email flow, I tend to forget that the mailing list exists until I need to ask a question of my own. In other words, I’d want to make sure it had a way to coerce knowledgable users to actively participate.

If Discourse isn’t to everyone’s liking, what about something like a chef-only StackExchange? Would that work?


Eric

On November 25, 2014 at 8:06:13 PM, AJ Christensen (aj@junglistheavy.industries) wrote:

It’s possible to interact w/ Discourse via email. I’ve used it for
forums for MMORPG guilds before. Works OK. It’s nice having markdown,
sticky posts, surveys and the like.

Not sure how it would work on this kind of scale – how many active
subs do you have to the ML? You’ll need to run Discourse somewhere :slight_smile:
You don’t have to run GGroups.

cheers,

–aj

On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 1:55 PM, Tyler tball@getchef.com wrote:

(I don’t know anything about discourse, so it may not do this) What if it continued to operate like a mailing list? IE, you could still send mail to reply and receive mail when other people post. If Discourse did that, would that fulfill your purpose?

I would like a better UI for searching. And if we switched to something like Discourse I could see tags being useful too.

-T

On Nov 25, 2014, at 4:44 PM, Phil Dibowitz phil@ipom.com wrote:

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 04:39:38PM -0800, Adam Jacob wrote:

And just moved all of our conversation over to Discourse?

http://www.discourse.org/

Please no.

Mailing lists are great for technical discussion… where you want to do
things like use ‘vim’ in your email client, suck in code snippets, format
nicely, etc.


Phil Dibowitz phil@ipom.com
Open Source software and tech docs Insanity Palace of Metallica
http://www.phildev.net/ http://www.ipom.com/

“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don’t matter
and those who matter don’t mind.”

  • Dr. Seuss

#8

I’d rather a rebirth of NNTP and see a series of chef newsgroups.

Death to email and more forum web sites.

On Nov 25, 2014, at 7:39 PM, Adam Jacob adam@getchef.com wrote:

And just moved all of our conversation over to Discourse?

http://www.discourse.org/

Adam


#9

Honestly, a few things, for me.

  1. the mailing list isn’t a common place for new users to wind up. All it
    takes is a glance at the stack overflow volume to see that a lot of users
    clearly don’t think of the ML first, or even at all. We’re old. :slight_smile:

  2. Tagging, sticky threads, and easier community moderation.

  3. Easy to have peoples identity come from lots of sources.

Not a fiat thing - just noodling out loud.

Adam
On Nov 25, 2014 5:33 PM, “KC Braunschweig” kcbraunschweig@gmail.com wrote:

What’s the problem we’re trying to solve here? Are people having specific
problems with the ML? Has chef inc been using discourse internally? What
are the pros for it over a traditional ML from folks that have used it a
while? My vote is ML cause I like them and don’t see a problem, but happy
to hear specifics. changemyview?

KC

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 5:05 PM, AJ Christensen <
aj@junglistheavy.industries> wrote:

It’s possible to interact w/ Discourse via email. I’ve used it for
forums for MMORPG guilds before. Works OK. It’s nice having markdown,
sticky posts, surveys and the like.

Not sure how it would work on this kind of scale – how many active
subs do you have to the ML? You’ll need to run Discourse somewhere :slight_smile:
You don’t have to run GGroups.

cheers,

–aj

On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 1:55 PM, Tyler tball@getchef.com wrote:

(I don’t know anything about discourse, so it may not do this) What if
it continued to operate like a mailing list? IE, you could still send mail
to reply and receive mail when other people post. If Discourse did that,
would that fulfill your purpose?

I would like a better UI for searching. And if we switched to
something like Discourse I could see tags being useful too.

-T

On Nov 25, 2014, at 4:44 PM, Phil Dibowitz phil@ipom.com wrote:

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 04:39:38PM -0800, Adam Jacob wrote:

And just moved all of our conversation over to Discourse?

http://www.discourse.org/

Please no.

Mailing lists are great for technical discussion… where you want to
do

things like use ‘vim’ in your email client, suck in code snippets,
format

nicely, etc.


Phil Dibowitz phil@ipom.com
Open Source software and tech docs Insanity Palace of Metallica
http://www.phildev.net/ http://www.ipom.com/

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don’t
matter

and those who matter don’t mind."

  • Dr. Seuss

#10

That’s adorable, Mike. :slight_smile:

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 6:25 PM, Mike Thibodeau miketlive@gmail.com wrote:

I’d rather a rebirth of NNTP and see a series of chef newsgroups.

Death to email and more forum web sites.

On Nov 25, 2014, at 7:39 PM, Adam Jacob adam@getchef.com wrote:

And just moved all of our conversation over to Discourse?

http://www.discourse.org/

Adam


#11

If we really just can’t help but run it ourselves, we can pay discourse to
do it, or we can easily just make it community run. Make it a sub-system in
the MAINTAINERS file, take an LT and some Maintainers, and move along.

Adam

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 5:05 PM, AJ Christensen <aj@junglistheavy.industries

wrote:

It’s possible to interact w/ Discourse via email. I’ve used it for
forums for MMORPG guilds before. Works OK. It’s nice having markdown,
sticky posts, surveys and the like.

Not sure how it would work on this kind of scale – how many active
subs do you have to the ML? You’ll need to run Discourse somewhere :slight_smile:
You don’t have to run GGroups.

cheers,

–aj

On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 1:55 PM, Tyler tball@getchef.com wrote:

(I don’t know anything about discourse, so it may not do this) What if
it continued to operate like a mailing list? IE, you could still send mail
to reply and receive mail when other people post. If Discourse did that,
would that fulfill your purpose?

I would like a better UI for searching. And if we switched to something
like Discourse I could see tags being useful too.

-T

On Nov 25, 2014, at 4:44 PM, Phil Dibowitz phil@ipom.com wrote:

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 04:39:38PM -0800, Adam Jacob wrote:

And just moved all of our conversation over to Discourse?

http://www.discourse.org/

Please no.

Mailing lists are great for technical discussion… where you want to do
things like use ‘vim’ in your email client, suck in code snippets,
format

nicely, etc.


Phil Dibowitz phil@ipom.com
Open Source software and tech docs Insanity Palace of Metallica
http://www.phildev.net/ http://www.ipom.com/

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don’t
matter

and those who matter don’t mind."

  • Dr. Seuss

#12

On Nov 25, 2014, at 8:43 PM, Adam Jacob adam@getchef.com wrote:

  1. the mailing list isn’t a common place for new users to wind up. All it takes is a glance at the stack overflow volume to see that a lot of users clearly don’t think of the ML first, or even at all. We’re old. :slight_smile:

I’m fine with that. Let the newbies run amok on SO. I might even post on there, if I were to get a wild hair.

But I would hate to be forced to go because there was no list.

  1. Tagging, sticky threads, and easier community moderation.

Because those things work so well on all the other web forum boards?

What other web forums are you using? I certainly don’t see newbies doing any of that on any of the forums I sometimes watch.

  1. Easy to have peoples identity come from lots of sources.

You log in with your user account and password, right?

How is that an improvement over just sending or receiving an e-mail with your existing mail client?


Brad Knowles brad@shub-internet.org
LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu


#13

On Nov 25, 2014, at 6:39 PM, Adam Jacob adam@getchef.com wrote:

And just moved all of our conversation over to Discourse?

http://www.discourse.org/

So, it’s a web forum with e-mail notification? That means I might remember to check it maybe once every few months.

If you want to kill e-mail, why not just put more wood behind the SO effort to get a chef-specific channel?


Brad Knowles brad@shub-internet.org
LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu


#14

I used to be part of the Ruby Rogues’ private email list, and participate
regularly.

Since they switched to Discourse (1+ year ago?), I think I’ve been there
around 5 times.

At the time you couldn’t just interact with Discourse via email, though
(receive all threads and respond). I don’t know if that’s changed.

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 10:24 PM, Brad Knowles brad@shub-internet.org
wrote:

On Nov 25, 2014, at 6:39 PM, Adam Jacob adam@getchef.com wrote:

And just moved all of our conversation over to Discourse?

http://www.discourse.org/

So, it’s a web forum with e-mail notification? That means I might
remember to check it maybe once every few months.

If you want to kill e-mail, why not just put more wood behind the SO
effort to get a chef-specific channel?


Brad Knowles brad@shub-internet.org
LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu

Organizer of DevOpsMtl http://www.devopsmtl.com. @webmat
http://twitter.com/webmat, LinkedIn
http://ca.linkedin.com/in/mathieumartin/, blog
http://www.programblings.com?utm_source=email+signature.


#15

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 4:55 PM, Tyler tball@getchef.com wrote:

I would like a better UI for searching. And if we switched to something like Discourse I could see tags being useful too.

If all you desire beyond the current setup is to have better
searching, have you considered subscribing all of your mailing lists
to markmail.org? Their search is fast and supports search modifiers
that are Google styled. Large-ish lists can get their own entity
consisting of groups of mailing lists. And it all appears to be free.

MarkMail has a feedback page where you can ask them to create an
entity for you and add your mailing lists, including how they can get
access to archives for complete history. It’s all located at
http://markmail.org/docs/feedback.xqy .

…Todd

The total budget at all receivers for solving senders’ problems is $0.
If you want them to accept your mail and manage it the way you want,
send it the way the spec says to. --John Levine


#16

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 7:39 PM, Adam Jacob adam@getchef.com wrote:

And just moved all of our conversation over to Discourse?

If only because it’s questions like this that have killed the migration in
the past. We get into analysis paralysis about which tool should we
migrate to. We analyze the pros and cons of each. Try some of them out
and then give up on the project because, while a priority, it doesn’t have
a high enough priority to maintain our attention span.

Our goals in this project include:

  • Migrate off of an in-house managed mail list system
  • Provide “mail in” and “mail out” on a reliable, easy-to-use platform
  • Provide an archive of previous mail list content

I’m all for debate and looking at alternate solutions but this will prolong
the migration process and may even stall it out completely again.

There is a proposal on StackExchange 0 for a Chef group. As of this
morning, it still needs 30 more questions with a score of 10 or more to
move on to the next phase. Help get behind that if you think it’s
appropriate.

Google groups, with all of it’s challenges, is stable, reliable, and
easy-to-use.

My vote is to move forward with the approved RFC 1 and I think we’re on
track to complete that work by the end of the calendar year.

http://www.discourse.org/

Adam


#17

I’m a fan of keeping the mailing list.

On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 10:19 AM, Nathen Harvey nharvey@getchef.com wrote:

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 7:39 PM, Adam Jacob adam@getchef.com wrote:

And just moved all of our conversation over to Discourse?

If only because it’s questions like this that have killed the migration in
the past. We get into analysis paralysis about which tool should we migrate
to. We analyze the pros and cons of each. Try some of them out and then
give up on the project because, while a priority, it doesn’t have a high
enough priority to maintain our attention span.

Our goals in this project include:

  • Migrate off of an in-house managed mail list system
  • Provide “mail in” and “mail out” on a reliable, easy-to-use platform
  • Provide an archive of previous mail list content

I’m all for debate and looking at alternate solutions but this will prolong
the migration process and may even stall it out completely again.

There is a proposal on StackExchange 0 for a Chef group. As of this
morning, it still needs 30 more questions with a score of 10 or more to move
on to the next phase. Help get behind that if you think it’s appropriate.

Google groups, with all of it’s challenges, is stable, reliable, and
easy-to-use.

My vote is to move forward with the approved RFC 1 and I think we’re on
track to complete that work by the end of the calendar year.

http://www.discourse.org/

Adam


#18

I’m also perfectly happy with a standard mailing list. In particular, other
open-source projects that I care about also have mailing lists in a similar
form, which makes it easy for me to filter and follow projects that I am
interested in.

In my opinion, there is a surprising difference between
tools-that-send-emails and an honest-to-goodness mailing list.

Your project requirements sound sane, however. Google groups is a common
answer, as mentioned earlier; in fact, I thought we were already using
Google groups because I wasn’t paying attention.

On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 11:04 AM, John de la Garza <
john.garza@rallyhealth.com> wrote:

I’m a fan of keeping the mailing list.

On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 10:19 AM, Nathen Harvey nharvey@getchef.com
wrote:

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 7:39 PM, Adam Jacob adam@getchef.com wrote:

And just moved all of our conversation over to Discourse?

If only because it’s questions like this that have killed the migration
in
the past. We get into analysis paralysis about which tool should we
migrate
to. We analyze the pros and cons of each. Try some of them out and then
give up on the project because, while a priority, it doesn’t have a high
enough priority to maintain our attention span.

Our goals in this project include:

  • Migrate off of an in-house managed mail list system
  • Provide “mail in” and “mail out” on a reliable, easy-to-use platform
  • Provide an archive of previous mail list content

I’m all for debate and looking at alternate solutions but this will
prolong
the migration process and may even stall it out completely again.

There is a proposal on StackExchange 0 for a Chef group. As of this
morning, it still needs 30 more questions with a score of 10 or more to
move
on to the next phase. Help get behind that if you think it’s
appropriate.

Google groups, with all of it’s challenges, is stable, reliable, and
easy-to-use.

My vote is to move forward with the approved RFC [1] and I think we’re on
track to complete that work by the end of the calendar year.

http://www.discourse.org/

Adam

[1]:

https://github.com/opscode/chef-rfc/blob/master/rfc028-mailing-list-migration.md


#19

I’m not blocking groups :slight_smile: I was just asking. :slight_smile:
On Nov 26, 2014 8:09 AM, “Brian Hatfield” bmhatfield@gmail.com wrote:

I’m also perfectly happy with a standard mailing list. In particular,
other open-source projects that I care about also have mailing lists in a
similar form, which makes it easy for me to filter and follow projects that
I am interested in.

In my opinion, there is a surprising difference between
tools-that-send-emails and an honest-to-goodness mailing list.

Your project requirements sound sane, however. Google groups is a common
answer, as mentioned earlier; in fact, I thought we were already using
Google groups because I wasn’t paying attention.

On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 11:04 AM, John de la Garza <
john.garza@rallyhealth.com> wrote:

I’m a fan of keeping the mailing list.

On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 10:19 AM, Nathen Harvey nharvey@getchef.com
wrote:

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 7:39 PM, Adam Jacob adam@getchef.com wrote:

And just moved all of our conversation over to Discourse?

If only because it’s questions like this that have killed the migration
in
the past. We get into analysis paralysis about which tool should we
migrate
to. We analyze the pros and cons of each. Try some of them out and
then
give up on the project because, while a priority, it doesn’t have a high
enough priority to maintain our attention span.

Our goals in this project include:

  • Migrate off of an in-house managed mail list system
  • Provide “mail in” and “mail out” on a reliable, easy-to-use platform
  • Provide an archive of previous mail list content

I’m all for debate and looking at alternate solutions but this will
prolong
the migration process and may even stall it out completely again.

There is a proposal on StackExchange 0 for a Chef group. As of this
morning, it still needs 30 more questions with a score of 10 or more to
move
on to the next phase. Help get behind that if you think it’s
appropriate.

Google groups, with all of it’s challenges, is stable, reliable, and
easy-to-use.

My vote is to move forward with the approved RFC [1] and I think we’re
on
track to complete that work by the end of the calendar year.

http://www.discourse.org/

Adam

[1]:

https://github.com/opscode/chef-rfc/blob/master/rfc028-mailing-list-migration.md


#20

On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 at 8:13 AM, Adam Jacob wrote:

I’m not blocking groups :slight_smile: I was just asking. :slight_smile:

With this group, I think you’re gonna get a fair bit of survivor bias. That said, I like email as an interface, and I think GGroups has decent enough usability for a casual user (subscribe to a single thread, etc.).


Daniel DeLeo